Webinar replay: Where to invest during a recession!

Isobel Lawrance 3rd Oct 2022 No Comments

Reading Time: 41 minutes

Where to invest during a recession!

Some companies do very, very well out of a recession. As they say, every cloud has a silver lining. If you know where to look you can invest in companies that do better than ever in a downturn. In this webinar, kindly sponsored by eToro, we spoke with some experts to guide you into the more lucrative areas and companies to invest in in the next 12-24 months.

The experts we spoke to include Sam North from eToro, the kind sponsor of the webinar. Jasmine was also joined by Justin Urquhart-Stewart, partner and co-founder on Seven Investment Management, Nick Hubble from Southbank Research and Tim Price, Director at Price Value Partners.

You can watch the full webinar below.

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Disclaimer: MoneyMagpie is not a licensed financial advisor and therefore information found here including opinions, commentary, suggestions or strategies are for informational, entertainment or educational purposes only. This should not be considered as financial advice. Anyone thinking of investing should conduct their own due diligence. 

The transcript

Jasmine Birtles So hello, and welcome to the MoneyMagpie webinar, how to invest in a recession. You could call it how to invest during stagflation, which is what we seem to have right now. And to help us work out what the heck to do with our money right now in these very confusing turbulent times, I have four experts that I love to have on my webinars and podcasts because I know that they know what they’re talking about. We have Justin Urquhart-Stewart, Justin do say Hi.

Justin Urquhart-Stewart Good morning or good afternoon or wherever you are.

Jasmine Birtles Now Justin, is founder of formerly of Barclays Stockbrokers, which is where I first met him. But founder of Seven Investments, which could easily be in your pension fund or any of your investments right now. And currently regionally, which helps regional businesses. We also have man or International Man of Mystery as he styles himself, Tim Price. Say Hi, Tim.

Tim Price Hi, Tim.

Jasmine Birtles As you can see, clearly can’t afford a camera.

Tim Price That’s value investing for you value is value does.

Jasmine Birtles Value investing. And he’s the co founder of Price Value Partners, which are wealth managers. And we also have Nick Hubble. Say Hi, Nick.

Nick Hubble Hello, everyone. The babies are asleep. So I can’t show you anyone and my background is not as exciting as Tim’s either.

Jasmine Birtles Exactly. Similar, almost International Man of Mystery. He’s got the international bit. Nick is actually speaking to us from Australia. What time is it in Australia?

Nick Hubble 10pm.

Jasmine Birtles Absolutely. And as you say, the kids are in bed so you can play with us, which is which is fantastic. Thank you. And Nick runs the Fortune and Freedom newsletter, which is an excellent free newsletter all about investing and the economy and all sorts of other stuff. I get it and I enjoy it. He also writes for Southbank Investments. And last but not least, and I’ve left him to the last because he is our lovely sponsor, we love you. Sam North, give us a wave.

Sam North Hello, everyone. Good to be here.

Jasmine Birtles And Sam is from eToro. And of course, Sam actually gives a lot of talks on how to invest, starting to invest, investing in all sorts of things like, you know, shares andcrypto, he can talk about all sorts of things like that. So as I said, I’m going to start off with a few questions, but it’s your opportunity to ask your questions. We want your questions.

No question is too dumb, seriously, this is a safe space. And it’s highly likely that any question that you think is dumb is really not dumb and everybody else, or at least half the rest of them were thinking that as well and thinking “Oh, thank goodness, they’ve asked that one.” So, we want your questions, either in the chat or just raise your hand and give us a question. Now I’m going to start it off with the easy peasy question. And again, I’ll start I’ll start with Nick Hubble with this one. Let’s start with our international one, Nick, what the heck is happening?

Nick Hubble Absolutely everything at the same time. And that’s not that unusual for financial markets and economics and politics. Because it’s so interconnected. It’s that there’s so many dominoes lying about all over the place, and one of them falls somewhere and all of a sudden there’s a chain reaction. So it’s not a big surprise that whenever there’s a little bit of chaos, all of a sudden it magnifies itself. The problem really is the amount of things that were just waiting to go wrong, the amount of potential problems that we had that which is waiting for that initial domino to tip over.

Jasmine Birtles So I’ll move to you, Sam. Again, what the heck is happening? What do you feel is happening in particularly in the stock market?

Sam North Yeah, like Nick was saying, it’s like everything that can go wrong, has gone wrong at the moment. You’ve got inflation at multi-decade highs. You’ve got the supply chain issues that were prevalent, the beginning of the year, you got all these interest rate hikes that are happening pretty much everywhere. You’ve still got in place like China, you know, the zero sort of COVID policies, a lot of lock downs there you got global growth, you know, slowing down and the geopolitical tensions you add that all together. No markets really going to like that.

So you know, in September, we just finished that mean historically, the worst month of the year for the stock market, and it didn’t disappoint this this this month five are really sort of per month in the stock market. Lots of them closed on Friday near multi year lows, or at least the low of this year. So yeah, markets have been shaky. There was a little bit of a recovery June/July. That didn’t last too long. And yeah, it feels like 2022 has been, you know, one of those years where it just drags on and on and on with the bad news. So fingers crossed, it can you know, it can recover in the back end of the year, but I don’t know how many people are too hopeful right now.

Jasmine Birtles True. Justin, when it comes to sorting things out, do you think there’s there’s any hope that our government can do something to improve the situation? Because it feels like there’s a whole load of elements outside of their control here? Do they have any hope of getting putting things upright again?

Justin Urquhart-Stewart Who’s got any hope of doing anything at all? For the past few weeks, we had Queen Liz sadly dying. And that actually showed the great thing that Britain is so good at, which is pageantry power. We’re very, very good. If we, if we could pack up, package that up and sell it. We’re all very wealthy. But then, of course, we have this, this Tory leadership. At a time when actually the global economy needs some direct leadership.

Because one word that runs the economy and return on investment is confidence. If you haven’t got any confidence, nothing happens at all. And so it’s really good, very difficult, frankly, when I look round at not just British politicians but global ones, one of them actually stand out as being fantastic leaders. But that’s just a cop out.The answer is though our politicians in Britain, have got to try and getting their act together. If not, we will continue to see what happened last week, and that’s not good news.

Jasmine Birtles True. Yeah. And the bond market now, Tim, this is this is one of your themes and has been I know for the last few years, that the bond market keeps looking like it’s it’s staggering, staggering on and could crash at any moment. Well, how do you feel about the bond market right now?

Tim Price It already crashed to a certain extent. So just as right it’s the story. There was a 50 year index linked bond index linked gilt UK government bond. And in the immediate aftermath of the Kwasi Kwarteng mini budget, it fell by over 50% in price. Now, that’s a UK I’ll just repeat that’s a UK government bond, in the space of roughly 48 hours lost over half of its value. Now, I suspect that that’s never happened before in history. And it may never recur in history either. But the bond market is the epicentre of this, and as you say, we’ve been majoring on this for some time now. So this is not a surprise, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to anybody.

We recently gave a presentation to clients in London and Jersey, and the very first slide was basically a chart of interest rates going back 5000 years. This is the bottom line interest rates set, not least in the bond market, arising from the lowest levels in recorded history. And if we just take the last 40 years, they’re rising from very low levels. So if you’re an investor back in the early 80s, you then experience low interest rates, lower inflation, higher stock markets, higher bond markets, higher property markets, all of that is now going into reverse. So now that interest rates are rising quite steeply in line with inflation. You can expect what has worked recently not to necessarily work in the future so effect not to put too fine a point on it. All bets are off now.

Jasmine Birtles I’m laughing because you know, you’re if you don’t laugh, you have to cry. So when you say all bets are off, I mean, we did hear that the government had to Bank of England had to shore up the bond market and they were saying, Oh, no pensions market. They were saying it was because pensions companies were investing in slightly dodgy stuff. That was it actually, the bond market.

Tim Price The bottom line was basically that pension funds were using things called LDI, liability driven investments to give up their portfolios. So you have the perfect storm whenever someone who is basically acutely vulnerable to one particular price when that price goes against you become a forced seller. And this is identical to what happened in the 87 crash in the US when you had a programme that’s called programme selling programme insurance, but basically you had you had people who were linked to the derivatives market and what that meant was that the further the market went down the more of their portfolios they needed to sell.

So this is a recurrent theme throughout finance that whenever people use borrowed money, it goes wrong eventually. And that’s what it’s all it’s happening in the bond market now. I mean, the bond market was under pressure anyway, not least because of inflation. And we knew that the Bank of England until the mini budget was due to start so called quantitative tightening, in other words, withdraw support for the market. Now it’s gone back into quantitive. Easing again. So if the government wanted to make itself look like, like, a clown running over a minefield, it’s a pretty good job of it.

Jasmine Birtles So when it comes to dealing with it, you know, as individuals as actual individual investors, where on earth do we start now? I mean, as Tim says, all bets are off, Nick, what do you think that individual investors need to think about right now?

Nick Hubble I’ve recently been writing about what happens when central banks are starting to tighten, to try and bring down inflation that’s already gotten out of control. And you also have stagflation. And there’s not many periods in history that has that combination, that the high inflation, the tightening monetary policy, and the recession. And the big lesson from those periods is probably to own quite a bit of gold. Gold is an opt out asset. You don’t rely on anyone else, when you own gold, and gold preserves your purchasing power, all other financial assets rely on someone else to do their job properly, which is it’s not a good assumption at the moment because people are not doing their jobs properly. I mean, these it’s a pension fund. It’s a pension fund that got into trouble. And it’s not a bank or an investment bank or overly leveraged, whatever it is, it’s supposed to be quite safe and boring. So I think that’s one option gold, but the real threat here is that everything was inflated so much that everything’s just starting to normalise. Now, it’s been an unbelievable crash. If you do the math for the US market, the typical investor in buys the s&p 500 and some bonds, they would have had the worst performance going back to the Great Depression, even beyond the Great Depression adjusted for inflation. So that’s because the asset prices were bid up so much going into this, that even just bringing things to much more normal levels, it makes for this enormous crash.

Jasmine Birtles Right. That’s a happy thought. Neil is asked owning gold, what percentage of your pot should be in gold? Very good question. What do you think, Nick?

Nick Hubble The number that’s very commonly bandied about by people like me is about 10%. I would increase that at the moment, but it depends on what else you invest in, what else your your personal financial circumstances, you know, how you’re set up what other investments you have. So for example, if you have gold shares, and you don’t want to increase it even more, but yeah, 10% is good place to start. A very few people have that.

Jasmine Birtles Sorry, Tim, I know that you’re big on gold. What would you say for your funds? The price value partners? What percentage have you got in the money metals, not just gold, but the money metals generally.

Tim Price So we make a special case for the for the money, as you said the monetary metals, gold and silver, because they’ve always been money good. Throughout all of recorded history, what individuals should own is entirely a personal decision. So it’s up to the individual investor. What we do, and this is very much with the view to capital preservation, we allocate typically between 20 and 40%, to bullion and to commodities related investments. So for us, it’s it’s a pretty high proportion of the overall pot, but that’s predominantly equity, not through the bullion asset itself.

Jasmine Birtles Oh, interesting. So when you say through equity, you’re talking about actual gold mining companies? Correct?

Tim Price Yeah, correct. Gold mining companies, silver mining companies, royalty, streaming companies and other commodities listed businesses, the one characteristic or the two characteristics. They should all have, though, that they’re highly cash generative already, and they have little or no debt. So that hope, hopefully helps us avoid value traps.

Jasmine Birtles Yeah, that’s a good point. And actually, Andrew Bevan says, How much silver I mean, I suppose the answer is the same depends on the person but it is a lot more volatile than gold, isn’t it, Tim?

Tim Price Yeah, it is. But that’s because it’s not least because it’s such a lower price. So you can buy so much more of it with the same amount of capital. But again, central banks buy gold, probably less so probably not at all silver. So silver is if you’d like the poor man’s gold, but I think there’s merit in both. Gold is almost entirely a sort of alternative, monetary good. And it’s also a form of jewellery. Silver has industrial application. So it’s slightly more industrially volatile. But we like it. We like to own both.

Jasmine Birtles Yeah, absolutely. And, Justin, I’ve got a question here from sia Kay, who says, where should a novice investor start? So it’s it’s a nice broad question, which a lot of people are wondering.

Justin Urquhart-Stewart Well, one of the things you have to do we don’t do rarely is actually teach people finance not around investment, just finance. So we have kids leave School leave university with a whole pile of debt and not even very cheap debt either because the the government, and then they’re expected actually them to sort out a large debt, go get a mortgage, oh, by the way safer pension. And no one’s got a clue actually what they should be doing, let alone how it actually works. And so first of all, I don’t just investor needs to be educated without being patronising about it.

One of the great ways that you can do that just to learn about investing, and admittedly, this is it’s, it’s relatively narrow, but it gets people idea of understanding about risk, liquidity and research. And it’s very old fashioned thing, setting up investment clubs, where you actually groups people gathering together, putting in 20 3040 pounds a month, whatever it happens to be, and learning almost how to make mistakes on the basis that you buy a company goes horribly wrong, because he lost 50 quid. Whereas if you’re buying actually seriously, for yourself, and you’re going to put 2000 pounds, well, in theory, then do a financial version of horse racing, that’s not investing less betting.

So some education as to what to do, and how to go about it. And I think that’s very, really very sensitive, because it’s a practical thing. And having a fan, you actually will also have some fun as well. And some of the clubs I’ve been to actually, so most of the time, actually just, they’ve actually made quite a bit of money over the years, seem to be advanced drinkers as well, thanks, man possibly mean in some of their decisions, not quite as firm as you’d expect.

But what you have to try and do now the good news is, and I’d say let me mention, Sam from eToro, there are lots of now sites and places you can go to, and of course, many made by to actually learn more about this, get views and opinions and learn how things go wrong. Good investment, if you’re doing really, really well should be actually quite dull. Because rule one, investing is very simple, don’t lose the sorting stuff. Rule two, refers to rule one, trust over time. And so actually one of the most important things you’ve learned about investing, which sounds again, very dull, is the power of compounding, deeply tedious, things like dividends coming through, and companies are still paying dividends, so I have to stop it.

But over a longer term, those are actually set up to provide dividends on regular basis, we knew they are, will actually then give you that benefit of compounding. And it’s the only very benefit to if you’re investing for the longer term. So equity investment in my view is not a one or two year thing unless you wanna have a bad name. But it’s there, it’s five to seven, maybe longer, and giving you a broad breadth of equities, and also other asset classes, lots of things you can invest in, to make sure that you’re not actually investing on a pogo stick, but actually got a whole series of legs you can stand on.

Jasmine Birtles Certainly spread your bets. Yes, Sam, it’d be great to hear from you. Because I know eToro kind of specialises in novice investors. Obviously, you’ve got a lot of people who know what they’re doing as well. But you’ve got a lot of help or for the novice, don’t you?

Sam North Yeah, that’s right. We’ve got something called the eToro Academy where there’s, you know, videos, podcasts, guides, everything that someone could want. And then we do regular webinars as well, similar to this where we we speak about what’s going on in the markets, what could drive price in the short term, the long term and so on. And I was actually I was doing a one to one session with a premier league footballer funnily enough on Friday, he was he’s 25 years old and not gonna say who he is, but he, he was he was wanting to get you know, proper serious about investing, you realise it’s a short career, I want to look after my money, you know, you’ve probably all heard the stat 60% of footballers go bankrupt within like three or four years, which is absolutely awful, considering the money that they generate in that sort of 1520 year periods.

So he really wants to get his head down and, and sort of find out as much about it as he can and we will just sort of saying similar to what Justin was saying make make investing boring, make it as incredibly dire. I think when people try to get these mega mega returns quickly, that’s when it can unravel and go wrong. So we were talking about the importance of you know, being diversified, doing it regularly rather than trying to time the market if you can time the market. Fantastic. The chance of someone doing that initially is going to be incredibly hard. So we were just talking about being diversified regularly investing and having a sort of a longer term view on things because statistically, the odds are in your favour doing it that way. When you try and time it and be very particular about it. That’s when things can unravel.

Jasmine Birtles So it is really getting that knowledge as you say Money Magpie has lots eToro has lots happily there is quite a lot on online now you can just sort of read a bit here and there. And then be boring with it just regular I think you know, slight slight bowel movements. It’s a good idea to be regular with your little pots of money every every month if you can set up a standing of a few standing orders. Susan asks, how does how do you does a novice start Buy Gold. Who can you trust? Good question. Tim, you buy gold for yourself sometimes, don’t you? I mean actual physical gold because there are various different ways of of buying gold. Of course, what do you suggest?

Tim Price Well, I can tell you that how I started. So I started buying gold through a company called ATS bullion, which is a bullion dealer, right next to the Savoy Hotel, just opposite strand, that there’s multiple places for this, there’s no there’s no shortage of choice. Companies like gold money, or bullion volt, or all credible players in this space. And I’m sure you’ll also be able to identify several yourself. So my suggestion would be you start off Owning the physical asset, and you want to own the physical asset. And then, when you’re sort of comfortable with the whole premise, maybe you then want to start consider investing either in a gold equities fund.

Or if you have the appetite, and the curiosity and the risk tolerance, maybe start to look at a few large cap gold miners. This is a special type of gold and silver company called a streaming royalty company. And these are companies that don’t explore the gold, they simply do deals with non monetary metal miners like say, Antofagasta or whoever it might be. And when they come across gold as a byproduct of let’s say, a copper mine. The royalty and streaming companies will come in and say well, we’ll take the gold off your hands, we’ll agree a price we’ll we’ll agree to buy that in for whatever period. And that ensures them a supply of the physical, but without taking exploration or production risk. So it’s a nice halfway house between boolean and a full blown mining company. And then again, if you have the risk appetite, go for go for large cap miners go for small cap miners, each of whom has different risk and return attributes, but it’s all part of the diversity plan.

Jasmine Birtles So that’s you’re really talking about share. So you’ve got the actual physical gold that you’re sovereigns or your little bars, you can get really tiny bars, bars. Now from the Royal Mint. I’ve seen you know, 79 quid, it’s like a sliver, pretty much of gold. So the Royal Mint is good as as Tim mentioned, ATS bullion, you can find them online as well. Or if you’re in London, or you know coming to London, you could pop down to the Savoy as he says it’s just around the corner from there. And Tim also mentioned bullion vault, because bullion vault, and also the Royal Mint, do digital gold.

So you might prefer that and you could have the fiscal thing in your hand, then you have to work out where to put it, but it’s safe, you know. But you could have digital gold through bullion vault or, as I say, the Royal Mint, and they just hold it for you. So you never see it, you buy it, you sell it, you just you don’t never see it another way, actually something that we are promoting at money Magpie because we like it is a new savings account that invests in gold. And that’s called Tally Money.

So if you go to tallymoney.com. In fact, I’ll write it in the chat, Tally money.com. You can set up an ordinary savings account and it comes with a card a payment card with it. So you can you can buy coffee with it, you can buy a car with it. But all the money is invested in gold. It doesn’t give you interest, but it goes up and down with gold. So in theory, at least it should roughly speaking, keep up with inflation, you would hope anyway. So that’s a nice, you know, an easier way to do it, perhaps.

Oh, we’ve got lots of questions here. Oh, wow. Just wondering where we are now. I was thinking to myself, Oh, I’m doing quite nicely. So covering this. But we’ve got all sorts of questions. How does the novice Oh, yes. The buy? Yes, that’s about buying gold. So this is from Matthew, even though bonuses, bonds have suffered greatly recently. Is it possible that the value of an individual bond can recover under different economic conditions? Or are the losses irrecoverable? What do you think Justin about that question?

Justin Urquhart-Stewart No deaths, the losses are recoverable. But it’s going to have to take a change, very significant change in what’s happening to interest rates at the moment. Really, with interest rates, we still been in the emergency rates since the banking crisis. And so that’s why I’ve had these ludicrously low rates. And one of the reasons central banks wanted to actually put rates up was to actually there’s a recession coming so I can cut rate, it’s quite different cut rates when you post a note. And so what they’re trying to do is encourage stabilisation and slowly build it up.

Also, as inflation was creeping into the system. That should be one of the mechanisms you can use to try and control inflation. It does. It’s not always terribly effective, but the central banks don’t have many choices, the only limited number of weapons they can use. Unfortunately, British governments in the fight itself are diametrically opposite position, whereas actually the Bank of England trying to raise rates and be able to control inflation, whereas the government was in a position where it was actually trying to make it more inflationary to actually put more. So they’re working opposite, opposite ways to each other. However, it’s hardly surprising international markets turned around and looked at it and said, What on earth are you doing here? I don’t want to invest in this. Thank you very much. I like bonds, but I don’t like your bonds.

Pretty Britain has actually always been quite a good word and fairly reliable country to invest in, we’ve never defaulted. Most other countries have defaulted in one or two American states have as well. So we’ll just see where it’s defaulting is people say, Am I really that attractive to invest in Britain? Well, you have a but not at those rates, you’re gonna have to pay me a lot more to take on that risk. And even an insult when you get the IMF who’s forecasts are generally What’s wrong, is when they come up with the figures actually, say criticising the UK.

But remember, most of their work is actually do with emerging markets, which sort of implies but we’re not emerging market. But we’re doing some fantastic impression and maybe a submerging market at the moment. But that’s not really not all is lost, we can see where the growth is going to be coming from. And we can see obviously dependent on all sorts of other political issues, that there will be growth there in due course, half the problem to me is actually getting the politicians out of the way, as because what we’ve seen over the past six weeks, particularly amongst the leadership of the government, wholesale lack of knowledge and understanding of how things work, and really taking a view as to how best to actually try and calm things down overall.

And having as we found out two days ago, a chancellor who on the eve of a budget, okay, not a budget, but you’re supposed to be in perder. And actually not telling everybody sitting down and having drinks with cheese, the some hedge fund managers, who also by the way, have been supporting Mistress on her campaign. I’m sure they were just talking about the rules of monopoly and maybe playing cards and canasta and things like that, or not mentioning what actually might be in the budget, which could be rather worrying and maybe being able to sell the market short. Well, Stoli? That’s exactly what did happen. Here.

Jasmine Birtles Absolutely. I’ve got another question, actually, from a point from Andrew Bevan, who says, two out of three places I buy gold from are out of stock of silver and gold. Nick, I’ve heard that I mean, this is happening. Anytime I go and buy gold. They’re like, Oh, yes, we’re so busy. We’re so busy. And yet, that gold price is nowhere near as high as you would you would expect. What Why is Why do you think that is, Nick?

Nick Hubble It’s an ongoing long story in the in the gold market, it’s because the the gold price is set in the futures market in the paper market where investment banks trading, it’s not set in a physical market, like most other goods. And because of that, it’s possible that the price is suppressed by trading of futures by investment bankers, and there was a big scandal and a lot of people were caught doing this recently. It doesn’t necessarily mean that the gold price is suppressed over long periods of time.

But the point is that the day to day movements in the gold price are set in that futures market. And that the bank can create a divergence between what’s happening on the ground in terms of physical gold. I’ve often wondered why people don’t just get together and make make the most of this by, I guess, forming an investment club that buys gold and gets it delivered. Given all of these shortages that everyone tells me about.

Jasmine Birtles Yeah, absolutely. So it does feel like now. I mean, I must say, and I should have said this right at the beginning that nothing said in this webinar should be taken as investment advice. Not at all. But this we’re just saying our opinions and yeah, my opinion is that gold seems to be cheap. I mean, certainly that must be your opinion, Tim.

Tim Price Yeah, I noticed on the comments that people were talking about, like gold or isn’t in some currency has been known and others. Think about gold, the physical assets as an alternative currency. So you can price gold and whatever currency you like. The reality is that gold has gone up quite consistently since 2000. In just about every currency, the only the only currency it’s meaningfully fallen in this year is the dollar but the dollar has been preeminent against everything. If you take an annualised view, gold’s done really well in investments for the last 20 years.

And I happen to think, you know, again, personal opinion, I haven’t think it’s gonna do very, very well in the years to come precisely because the bond markets run out of steam, and governments are printing creating currencies, creating new money, like it’s going out of fashion, which it is, the beauty of gold in just one form is it’s nobody else’s liability that’s worth having and in a world where currencies are being massively debauched.

Jasmine Birtles Yes, yes, Justin. You’re waving?

Justin Urquhart-Stewart Yeah, this fun thing about gold, which is, I think people should be aware of, you can buy gold via an ETF exchange traded fund or etc exchange commodity, which is fine, you have to watch the cost on it. But it means it’s very easy to trade in and out of that. And that makes life easier. However, you have to make sure these ETFs either they are in fact, investing in gold afterall. Or are they use this term synthetic, which is an excuse to say we’re investing in something else which reflects gold, which is why, and then they get a bit hazy as to what the detail is, that is risky, and my views go nowhere near it.

So, ETF access is a kind of perfect way of going about it. But be wary of the construction underneath it. And just bear in mind that particular risk. The other drawback with gold, of course, yes, it goes up or down. There’s no three dimension to it. And no, you’re expected. But, you know, dividends are important to investment portfolios. So gold should be part of it. And I agree with what Nick was saying 10 15% In nervous times, we still have to have those other asset classes. The one you probably don’t want to go near at the moment will be those government God bond markets.

And they have been seriously distorted by other other areas we can look at the problem Britain’s got at the moment is there are so many issues working against the economy, that actually it could actually we could lose confidence really, very quickly, indeed, only a couple of months ago, wouldn’t have necessarily been in that position. Because the way the government’s handling things at the moment, it’s not getting that confidence. And so the future looks foggy. People like to be able to see what’s happening. Normally, I’d be saying, okay, the global economy will recover. And therefore we get investment, the markets weak will eventually recover, if you don’t think it’s going to recover, go and buy a case of scotch and go and sit in a cave in Wales, and forget all about it, if you do think is actually still going to be there in some form, then you don’t opt out altogether, you have to look to those areas which have been heavily bombed, but still creating cash, actually in a position where they’ve got low levels of debt, such companies are around and still have demand even in a markets like this.

And particularly also, we are very careful with smaller companies very, very risky indeed. But if you know the detail, actually how they operate and what they’re trying to do. Again, there’d be some good value. But for private investors and see really understand and know those businesses, you have to be very careful, and particularly when you’re dealing with overseas ones, for instance, Chinese companies, for example. No company goes bust in China without the party saying so.

And you start getting hold of important accounts from a Chinese company. We used to think Italian ones are bad enough one for you after tax man and one for the actual raw, who’s running the country? In China, you could probably double that. And afraid the quality of the data you’re getting is awful. Duration, you stay well away from that.

Jasmine Birtles Absolutely. No, I totally agree. Now we’ve got a question from Peter. Peter, we can’t actually answer this question exactly. But I’m going to give it to Sam to talk generally, because you’re saying should I pay more money into my Aviva pension? Given it has declined by 17,000 pounds since first of January 2022? Gosh, Sam, what did what do you think about that?

Sam North Well, I think you’re not going to be alone this year in 2022, in having a pretty tough time. But the good news is, you know, overall, stock markets do go up over time, especially if we just, you know crossed the pond to the US, I think it’s 70 odd percent of the time, it’s going to finish higher, on average, I think it’s around 10%. So, you know, while we’re in this sort of this bear market, this recession, they don’t last forever, and markets do recover. I think what can be tricky is when people go about it, trying to pick individual stocks, for example.

So while if we fast forward to three years, if the stock market may well be back at all time highs, you can have some individual stocks that won’t. So in that sort of longer term pension diversified equity portfolio, you know, this for some people will be, you know, a great opportunity to get in, right, because you’re looking at markets that are 20 35% down, that recovery will be will be great. So, look, trying to time it perfectly is going to be tough. But that said what follows a bear market, every time we’ve seen in history is a bull market, which lasts three four times as long. I think recessions on average, you know, there’s been 11 since World War Two, they are lasting less time than then then before thanks to central banks in the way that they sort of deal with things I know they’re not everyone’s best friend right now central banks, but I do do think you know, things can start to look a little bit better in the months to come I don’t necessarily think it’s gonna be a good winter at all for for prices still.

But, you know, you’re, if you think about it long, long term you’re buying at a discount now, but again, it’s still in my view, certainly the way that I would be doing it is man Fleet looking to get in trying to time it is going to be hard. And if you do just, you know, buy at one price, you’re tied to that. Now, if you had a crystal ball and you went back to March 2020, and you decided to buy, then you’re still laughing now, you know that pandemic low. But, you know, again, at the time, they had some very, very, very smart people saying this markets still gonna go lower. So if they don’t know, you know, to the exact point, we’re not going to either. So I think it’s a case of Yeah, diversifying, you know, not risking what you can’t afford to lose, but still having that longer term view that that stock market is on your side. Yes.

Jasmine Birtles There’s a lovely line there when you’re sorry. Oh, no, real sorry. Sorry, I’m not sure he was speaking there, so to speak, Justin.

Justin Urquhart-Stewart Says lovely old line with this. It’s, you know, we’ve talked about time in the market was always timing the market, which is almost impossible, it’s time in the market, you got to stay there for the longer term to be able to get all of that. And really make sure you get that that value. Because otherwise it’s you aren’t just into betting. And that’s a significant difference. Overall, sorry.

Jasmine Birtles Nick, I was going to ask you, what do you because you know, this this experience here of losing? I mean, I don’t know what percentage it is. But 17k, it feels like a lot in one year. Are you seeing most funds going down? At the moment? You know, has it been a downer for pretty much all the pension funds and investment funds, as far as you’ve seen?

Nick Hubble Yeah, because they rely on on bonds going up when their stocks go down, which hasn’t happened, which makes us especially dangerous. And there’s another issue here though, despite agreeing with the conclusions, that sandwich said, you know, when the stock fall, that’s when you should be buying. And that’s almost a sign that that’s that’s the opportunity. And personally, I would only buy after a crash. That’s the only time I’m going to be bothering to get into the stock market.

The issue is that during periods when we have stagflation, and central banks are tightening monetary policy to try and get that stagflation under control, the market can go down really, really, really badly. So in for the Dow Jones Industrial Average, the US stock market index that goes right back to before World War One, for example, the 1982, bottom in the Dow Jones Industrial Average was the same level inflation adjusted as before World War One. Right, so that that time in the market didn’t help you then. Now the thing is, after that we had one of the best bull markets in history.

The question is, how low does it good. And this particular time period is especially dangerous. Because of that combination of a bad economy, inflation and tightening monetary policy, it’s extremely unlikely that central bankers will be able to go back to inflating a new bubble, and pushing stock markets up again, because of the inflation that we’ve got. That’s what makes this so dangerous. And that’s what makes the old the old investment rules of time in the market and things like that a bit more dangerous than they usually would be.

Jasmine Birtles Interesting. Oh, we got another question. Also from Adrian, he says, Can I ask hasn’t gold? Haven’t gold prices already rocketed? So is it too late to buy gold? Not in my opinion, Tim, what do you think? Is it too late?

Tim Price No, no, by a long chalk, in my view, the issue here is, as I say, you should look at gold as an alternative currency, the one that’s not anybody’s liability that doesn’t have any counterparty risk. So a question we often get from clients is when do we take profits in gold? And the answer is, well, that’s looking looking at the markets with the wrong end of the telescope. What people should be asking is, it’s not what what’s gold worth in dollars, but rather, what’s the dollar worth and extreme as the dollar is not worth anything. Now, we may yet to see the dollar not worth anything in our own lifetimes.

But the issue is we will sell take profits and gold when the circumstances that that enabled us or inspired us to buy it have changed. We own gold for clients, in large part because the world is drowning in debt and that debt is being inflated away. When the debt predicament is resolved. We’ll look maybe to shift into other things. But as things stand now, the thing about commodities, which gold undoubtedly is, commodities, prices can move far further more quickly than anyone anticipates. So I in my view, we’re only at the start of a multi year bull market for commodities generally, and for gold in particular. So we’re not fazed by very short term underperformance.

Jasmine Birtles So what you’re saying is it’s not just gold, silver, we’re talking oil steel.

Tim Price Yeah, we just call them real assets. So we allocate typically 40 to 50% of client portfolios into equity interests relating to the real asset sector. And given the amazing thing now is that you would think that in a high inflation world, people should be bidding these things up to astronomical levels. The reality is there’s a ratio that we talk about with clients pretty much all the time now, the Bloomberg commodities index versus the s&p 500, the broad US stock market is at its cheapest level for 50 years, this is probably the most compelling investment opportunity I’ve seen in my lifetime. So favouring real assets right now over paper, one seems to me to make all the sense in the world.

Jasmine Birtles Just in August, is there such a thing as commodities fund, you know, because Tim is talking about individual companies, individual shares, which is, which is great, I think, for a professional investor. But for someone like me, someone like you know, everybody else in the audience, it’s, it’s easier and safer quite often to just invest in a fund, what would you suggest in terms of to make the most of what Tim is saying about the commodities?

Justin Urquhart-Stewart Well, there’s two, this the first part of the question is, yes, there are lots of commodity funds, but look very carefully. And first of all, and what and what’s inside them and how they’re run. First of all, you can actually look at the structure in terms of actually the what the price is, and what its past performance be like, and what its past performance be like, actually after costs as well. And also compare that with inflation and give you a decent measure as to the real value there. Also, you can actually have some which are passive investments whereby they are just buying, effectively the price or the index or price of individual commodities, and they follow that up and down.

Now, that means, of course, it’s completely dumb, doesn’t require any human being. And it, it just really operates like that, if you think generally, commodities are mostly going to go up, it’s quite a good way of doing it. You can do that with competence as well, if you can’t pick individual companies, then you can buy a sector or the index. And the same applies to commodities. However, with commodities, because you’ve actually got specialists in particular areas, you can then use that specialist knowledge and see if they are actually able to use that to get better returns over the years. So their particular fund managers will have experience in particular commodities.

And again, you can go in see the individuals or groups who have managed it, what their past track record has been over quite a period of time. And if they can pass a record, which is actually showing real returns, not necessarily the same every single year, because that would imply something’s going on, you then up some running a Ponzi scheme behind it, not unknown. And so it’s an investigation in there so that out of the private investors got lots of choice. So look at the history, look at the structure, look at the cost, and then you can make up your mind.

One thing worth bearing in mind, of course, is with funds, they’re not always necessarily that illiquid to trade immediately, they may take some time. And in fact, occasion you’ll find in certain areas, but property, they even freeze up altogether. But so liquidity can be quite important. If you need to get your hands on something, or you just want to get out of it quickly. That’s where an ETF or the tracker of indices will provide you a better structure there to trade out of it quickly. But you haven’t got the exterior, the experience or the knowledge of the pressure manager in that. It’s just a dumb index.

Jasmine Birtles Yeah, I’m a big fan personally of dumb indexes, they have a tendency to do better than the smart, clever fund pickers. I find stock pickers. And I’ve got another question here from Pete, who says that gold has risen in sterling terms but has dropped significantly in dollar terms still worth buying? In my my opinion, gold bullion coins are tax free. And that connects up with what Regina has asked, which is do we need to pay tax when buying and also when selling the physical gold? Is there any tax benefit on buying gold in physical, digital or fund form? Tim, you’re my gold specialist. What what do you think about that?

Tim Price If you buy physical gold in the form of sovereigns or Britannias, there’s no capital gains tax to pay. Because then they’re their money, their legal tender, you’d be mad to use it as legal tender because the purchasing power is vastly understated on the face value of the coinage but yeah, you’d have to buy CGT it may be different in the silver market, but in gold Yeah. The Sovereign the Britannia is a country of tax.

Jasmine Birtles But all the rest of it you have to pay tax on?

Tim Price That’s my understanding. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Jasmine Birtles And, Nick, when it comes to buying and selling gold and the in various forms and commodities, again, I mean, we were just talking about various different types of funds that you could you could invest in. Do you think that it’s it’s worth looking up internationally? Or should we keep to just UK funds?

Nick Hubble Yeah, Bullion vault provides international storage in I think Zurich, Singapore, London, and I’ve forgotten Tim, you might know that the other one but anyway

Tim Price I think they offer Toronto as well.

Nick Hubble they’re directing their marketing at a certain crowd who wants to keep their gold offshore. The problem with gold and lots of other investments actually for UK investors and investors anywhere in the world except the US is that the gold price is only half the equation, you’ve got to get the currency right to, which is what one of the questions was about the the gold price and Sterling terms has done really well, the gold price in US dollar terms has not. And the reason that the gold price has done well in sterling terms is not because the gold price has gone up. But because the pound has gone down so much. So you’ve got to be aware of it.

So there’s four different quadrants, I call them, you’ve got to think about what sort of economic environment makes the gold price go up and down, and what sort of economic environment makes the pound go up and down, you’ve got to figure out between the four what’s going on, I think that it’s an added reason for UK investors to buy gold, because during a financial crisis, the pound is likely to crash and the gold price is likely to go up, which means you double up those gains. And then if the pound and the gold price move in opposite directions, they sort of cancel each other out, which is basically what’s happening now. I think it’s extremely unlikely that gold prices will fall and the pound will go up, which will be the nightmare scenario for for gold investors and UK.

Jasmine Birtles Interesting point there. Yes. Now Andrew has said, Where does the panel think that inflation will be at in 12 months? I think about 20 to 25%. Interesting one, Sam, where do you think inflation will be? In 12 months time? Will it be better than it is at the moment? Or will it be considerably worse?

Sam North You think the opposite of what the Bank of England thing would be my answer. I mean, we I think a lot of people have given central banks a hard time in in recent times. And some of that is definitely deserved. Obviously, there is been a hard job as well, let’s not forget the you know, there’s been some black swan events that haven’t helped. But I think inflation next year is going to be significantly higher. You know, you seen some Goldman Sachs come out not long ago, Morgan Stanley as well about UK inflation yet getting to that sort of 20%.

Mark, you’d like to think that things can get a little bit better. And we can start we can try sort of curb that. But yeah, I mean, it’s likely to increase, it’s likely to be a very tough year. Next year for the UK, we’re already expecting mostly this this recession to last quite some time growth, not to go positive for a couple of years I’ve read as well. So yeah, I think it’s going to be it’s going to be significantly higher than than where it is now. But hopefully, once we do it sort of reach that peak, we can come down quite dramatically. But yeah, I’m not not too hopeful.

Jasmine Birtles Nick, you look at things from an international perspective. And I know you’ve got a writer at Southbank, who lives in Argentina, where they have about sort of 80% eight to zero 80% inflation. Same with Turkey, of course, they’ve got about 80%. So there’s there’s a lot of possibilities, frankly, what how do you see inflation in Britain and also in other countries?

Nick Hubble I think there’s two reasons, I would expect inflation to come down. In fact, I would say in a year’s time, we’ll have deflation. And that’s because I think there’s going to be some sort of financial crisis, I think the central bankers will tighten too much too fast, and cause some sort of crash somewhere. We’ve already seen that, or at least signs of that in the UK at the moment. And if we do get that I think inflation will come back down. The other reason is that inflation is a rate of increase. It’s not just high prices, which means if prices double tomorrow and then stay flat, they’ve remained too high. But the inflation rate actually cancels out to zero because they stopped going up.

And I think we’re very much facing a situation where the price of things has shot up. But there’s no inherent weakness, not necessarily any inherent momentum from here on in for that to continue. The big caveat is the energy crisis. But I don’t know if that inflation would show up in a year’s time. It might mean very high inflation for next few months. I’m also worried that the European solution solutions to the energy crisis are going to make inflation a lot worse, but um, I think the Euro zone is the one to watch internationally, unless there’s some sort of massive currency crisis in Japan, which would be comparable to what’s happened in the UK over the last week and a half.

Jasmine Birtles Interesting. Gosh, Justin, what what do you think? Do you think deflation is potentially on the cards as well?

Justin Urquhart-Stewart Well, we can see from the commodity futures prices for next year, that commodities, prices will be dropping. Remember, of course, inflation adjusts every month as 12 months ago, that figure drops off we now have another month. So it’s, you know, has will oil or whatever commodity is double again, if it doesn’t, it’s just flat then of course, and it looks as though it’s going to be flat, and therefore you won’t see inflation. Great. So level, the problem that politicians have is you move from the initial inflation, and then it gets embedded. And you find it embedded and things like pay rises. And you can quite understand people say, Why am I getting a two cent pay rise when inflation is going to be 1015? Or even as Goldman Sachs said you have a 20%? And the answer is you have to separate out the the issues of short term inflation with at use your pay levels in the longer term. But that’s a political and corporate issues, try and manage but not easy to try and get through.

So people have to be really well, rather careful with that the try and finish there, make sure you can manage inflation, once you’ve got things such as index linked bonds, which you can actually get some benefit that way, but they’ve already moved a long time ago. So it’s a bit late for that I’m afraid, of course, unfortunately, the government who of course, have an awful lot of debt. And a lot of that debt, as that was actually huge, as introduced by Mr. G, brown, a squat, put into inflation linked bonds, so for years at you very low. Now, it’s incredibly expensive.

So we’re paying on our on our amount of debt that we have. Well, normally it was about two years goes about 50 billion a year, which is around about the defence budget, this coming year, it’s gonna be about 100 billion, which is the equivalent to the entire education budget. And that’s where markets start looking at us and saying, you’ve got too much debt here, and it’s costing too much. Therefore we go elsewhere. We need someone now who’s just gonna start rebuilding that confidence with sound economic measures, and sound economic measures do not include necessary funding tax breaks by picking on more debt. That doesn’t make sense. And that’s why the market reacted.

Jasmine Birtles Tim, what do you think?

Tim Price About what in particular?

Jasmine Birtles So the original question was, where is inflation going to be in 12 months time?

Tim Price I think my answer is going to be similar to Sam’s it’s going to be high higher than is reported by the authorities.

Jasmine Birtles Well, it is right now, isn’t it? I’ve been saying for months. It’s not 9% 10%. It’s 15. Come on, you know, just you one’s own lived experience changes that. I’ve got another interesting question here from Neal, where the dragon portfolio looks to future proof one’s investments for the long term. How else would the panel look to construct their doomsday portfolio? What do you think, Tim?

Tim Price So yeah, so this is how we invest already. So if I were to boil it down to three things, it would be value stocks trend following funds, which is a type of price momentum approach, and there’s call it gold or real assets, cheap stocks, trend following and real assets. That’s how we do it and no bonds or cash.

Jasmine Birtles Oh, interesting. What what do you think, Nick? What’s your view on that?

Nick Hubble I think I would add cash, I would have some cash in that. In that list. I think bonds might be worth buying at the moment that that bond crash that happened in the UK market. If you bought during that crash, you’d be sitting pretty now. But yeah, for anything really in the longer term. I agree with with Tim setup, that the challenge is finding those value investments. And that’s what Tim does.

Jasmine Birtles Interesting point here, from Sarah, who says, Isn’t Russia or you mean the rubles? Aren’t the rubles backed by gold, so they could flood the market. Is this a risk? To me if I could buy rubles right now? I would I think that’s one of the grounds minus pi. Justin, what do you think? Do you think it is a risk? That rubles could could flood the market?

Justin Urquhart-Stewart Ruble is backed by hot air. So be extremely careful indeed, this is not a proper tradable currency. And bear in mind, of course, that you remember, the Russian economy is tiny. Russia is not a superpower, Russia is a dangerous power. If you look at its GDP, it’s run about well, the EU it’s about half the UK GDP slightly more than that. So if you think we every time we suck through our teeth every time we fire a missile off, and that’s not true in 2000, we can’t afford it. Well, they’re fighting a war which they can’t afford either. They also try and make sure they try and solve their gas and oil wherever they can. But it’s going to be increasingly difficult.

So yes, it is increasingly dependent upon gold and such like but remember overall budget bought Putin said he was going to do is broaden out the Russian economy away from commodities. He’s done. diametro To the opposite, there’s issues now of the sanctions are having an impact straight through there. Because that is a very distinct cash shortage. Yes, you’d be building up cash for a lot of it was outside Russia, in banks, which are frozen. There will be other areas you can try and deal with. So no, I wouldn’t be dealing with that. I wouldn’t trust the rule files like a thread.

Jasmine Birtles Oh, good, Nick, do you trust the ruble because I like the look of it.

Nick Hubble What’s the best performing currency out there? For the year to date? So while everything is crashed as soon as Joe Biden said, we’re gonna make the rubble rubble or whatever he said, along those lines since then, it’s performed incredibly well. And I don’t know, I don’t think it’s worth speculating on after it’s gone up. I think it’s 27% A few weeks ago, year to date, or whatever else is crash. I think that games up that we’ve missed, missed that boat, even if you could have bought them. I’m not sure what you do with them after you have bought the moment.

Jasmine Birtles There are absolutely. I’ve got to question your point here. Moon, can we get a recording of this, please? Yes, you can, when I’m recording it now. And I will be uploading it to Money Magpie, in fact, is he will be doing it hopefully, sort of later today or tomorrow. So we’ll put it in the newsletter as soon as we have it as well. Interesting point here. Now, annoyingly, Sam has just gone he would have been the perfect person to answer this.

Can you comment on Bitcoin? And the security issues with storage? Where to buy it? Very good, very good point. I mean, you know, the one that I tend to mention is Coinbase. But there have been issues with Coinbase. Ultimately, when it comes to storage of any cryptocurrency, then the probably the best is to do what they call cold storage, which is basically a sort of a USB stick type of thing.

So you can you buy it, maybe on Coinbase or bid for next one of those, and then you transfer it to your cold storage, USB stick and then you store that somewhere very safe. So I would say that’s the best but when it comes to commenting on Bitcoin, I know Nick, you’re not a huge fan, I believe what what’s your view.

Nick Hubble I think is lost its soul. So I’m a huge fan of Bitcoin, I’m disappointed in the fact that it’s become a speculative mania. i So Bitcoin has an intrinsic value, because it’s a payment network, not just a money, which means you can transfer Bitcoin all over the world, to anyone anonymously and all these other benefits that has value, the ability to do that has value I’ve moved internationally twice in the last two years. I know that the value of being able to move money without having to mess about with a bank and tax and all these authorities and, and the complexity of it. And that part of Bitcoin has been completely lost in all of the speculative mania that’s grown up around Bitcoin.

So I wish people would focus on the power that it has to change lives and economies rather than being a speculative asset. That said, the value of Bitcoin is proven at times like this, when you know, all of these, these financial systems are struggling, and you’ve got sanctions on Russia and things like that. Imagine you have a family member in Russia, and you need to get the money or you had a business that was operating in Russia partially. Well, Bitcoin offers solutions to people like that Argentina is the best example and parts of Africa that’s been lost. And people just care about the price now, which is, at that point, it becomes a Ponzi scheme of speculative mania and the criticisms justified.

Jasmine Birtles yeah, and I am surprised rather like gold that Bitcoin isn’t higher at the moment for all of those very reasons, as you say, it should be actually worth more, but it seems to have gone up and down with the stock market, which is frankly weird, but I say weird, I suppose it is, as you say, because of speculators they speculate in the stock market and at the same time, they speculate in Bitcoin.

Nick Hubble Yeah, if you remember years ago, AirBnB and Uber, they used to be very libertarian, anti government, challenging the establishment companies. And that’s how they became big and how they became successful. And then slowly over time, they became more and more pro government more and more establishment, more lobbyists. And they became part of the city councillors that tried to ban them and partnered with taxi firms and airports and all this sort of thing. They lost their entire soul and the whole purpose of being and they got subsumed into this, this the establishment effectively. And I think it’s the same with Bitcoin. It’s become part of financial markets, at least a price fence and how most people buy and invest in Bitcoin now is three exchanges, which defeats the whole purpose of doing it in the first place.

Jasmine Birtles That’s a good point. It’s like PayPal, which which originally was was, you know, the new and exciting player in the market and now they’re cancelling people because they don’t like their views. It’s quite appalling. Oh, got some good points here for Andrew Bevan says 20% VAT on silver Peter Miller says also 20% VAT on platinum coins as well. useful to know, thank you very much to know about because yeah, it all costs. Now Raj has said, interesting. Any, any advice on buying alternative assets like Rolexes, fine art, wine, et cetera? We’re quite good on that on MoneyMagpie.com, actually, so do have a look at our articles. But just in what do you think about you? What sort of general advice do you have about these alternative, quite quite fun investments?

Justin Urquhart-Stewart Well, that’s fun. But bear in mind, these are normally unregulated investments. So you have to be even more aware of what’s going on. Given my own personal background, I actually do invest in some wine mainly because I happen to know certain wines and know how they trade. And to that extent, actually, that’s been really rather good. But for the innocent entering that market, it’s very good way of getting thoroughly ripped off, depending who you’re dealing with. And it’s a market which well, it may say it’s liquid, because it’s wine, but not always liquid enough to dare say trade at the time you want it. But there are other alternative assets, which are, again, probably pretty liquid for quite good value, I have a couple of old cars, which are done really rather well.

But I’ll be sitting there so trading a Morris traveller from 1963, because actually, it’s gonna be really quite restrictive. But in terms of an asset going up, I’ve also got quite a lot of Roman coins. But again, same thing, it’s a nice asset to have. And I can sit back and say it’s gonna be worth something. But it’s it is something which is not regulated, it’s not easy to actually get proper price formation. So it’s more of a hobby, as long as you keep it like that, and you’re not sitting there and your pension doesn’t depend on it, then that’s okay, if you’ve got that area where you can actually have some fun, use it and treat it as a hobby.

Jasmine Birtles Yes, I have an interest in in Ms. Handbags. I’ve written about them a few times. They’ve gone phenomenally, it’s just Yes. What stops me is thinking I’ve got to do some little bit of research in this I’ll have to go to some auctions, etc. And have a look at them. And you do you need to take a bit of time on it. Tim, is there anything that you collect other than compliments obviously.

Tim Price Battles scars?

Jasmine Birtles It’s what about battleships so and toy planes? I mean, you’re pretty good on those I seem to remember.

Tim Price digitally only so I’d put in a plug for a game called War Thunder, which would Tide me over during the first lockdown, but I don’t think anything collectible about it.

Jasmine Birtles How about you, Nick, do you collect anything?

Nick Hubble I have bought some wine futures, which means you buy the wine before it’s bottles, and maybe I’ll try and sell them to Justin shortly after this this video.

Jasmine Birtles That’s a good idea. Well, that’s all we’ve got time for I’m really sorry, because we’ve got some more questions. Feel free by the way with questions that haven’t been answered, send them into our send them to editorial at money. magpie.com and we will get them answered. So that’s editorial at money magpie.com We’ll get some great people to answer any of your questions. So send them in. Thank you to Sam who’s not here, Sam north from eToro thank you to eToro for sponsoring. Thank you so much, Nick Hubble for coming all the way from Australia. You have to get back in the plane now and go back to get to bed. Thank you so much.

Justin Urquhart-Stewart, Thank you. And thank you, Tim price man of mystery. One day, we’ll see his face one day. Oh, yes, we will. Thank you so much for all those wonderful piece of advice. And thank you, audience members.

Thank you so much for coming along and bringing your fantastic questions. It’s been great to see you come along to the next one. Make sure that you’re signed up to Eventbrite, follow us on Eventbrite. Follow us on MoneyMagpie, sign up to the MoneyMagpie investing newsletter. It comes out once a fortnight full of useful stuff and look forward to seeing you in the next one.